Good job, you scholars who have commented thus far. I thought that several of you gave me some vary thoughtful answers. I'll be responding to each in turn. It make take me a bit to get to everyone, but I will. Let me encourage you to look beyond just the facts. Facts in this forum are to support your thoughts. When school starts, the writing and testing will provide the evidence of your close reading. Here you are free to discuss and debate elements of the novel such as theme. To do it well and intelligently, reading is a must. Basically, don't get so hung up on names. Seek the humanity that Achebe has embedded in the novel.
To this end I have several things I want you to discuss.
First, read the poem "The Second Coming" and discuss what you think this poem by a British poet has to do with an African novel.
What are Okonkwo's virtues and vices?
What do you think of a society that has a ritualistic form of suicide? What other societies can you think of that have one?
What is the difference between spirituality and religion? Can you have one without the other?
It goes without saying that I want concrete details to support arguments, but I said it anyway.
If your comments haven't shown up, I receive emails with them and I will figure out the bug.
RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!
Just as in the book, the poem "The Second Coming" is about how something so good eventually becomes destroyed. Nothing can stop time, or the changes that occur within it. One can only try to alter the outcome. The poem is just back-up evidence that just because something 'falls apart' does not mean that it wasn't once something great.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo virtued things such as respect, he did not care if he was giving or taking respect, it was supposed to be there regardless. Accountability was also shown throughout the book like when he accidently shot one of the villagers. I believe most of Okonkwo's vices were just based off of how strongly he virtued some things. He beat his children and wives to show he demanded respect and make them take accountability for their actions.
Having a religion I think is what makes it acceptable to have a ritualistic form of suicide. When you are spiritual, it is a connection, relationship, something deep inside. Religion is just following the rules you have been told to do, like how and what to do when a suicide occurs. With that said, I believe you can have one without the other. The Muslim religion is another society that has a ritualistic form of suicide. They believe if you kill yourself for the good of your people, you will go to Paradise and recieve "beautiful women" to marry.
The poem, “The Second Coming” speaks quite clearly about things falling apart and turning into mere chaos. I think that both the poem and the novel both show that. When the author mentions the part “The falcon cannot hear the falconer” I think of how often people get mixed up in their religions and lose sight of the important things.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwos virtues are that he is very strong and courageous. He is also very set in his ways when it comes to his spiritual beliefs, and it is often good to be that way in my opinion.
Okonkwos vices, if shown in a different light, could be the same as his virtues. One of his vices would be when he beat his wife and shamefully broke the week of peace. A vice by definition is immoral or wicked behavior, which is what I found that to be.
I think a society that has a ritualistic form of suicide is very wrong. I do not believe in it at all. Another society I can think of that does this would be the Seppuku, or Hari Kari. In their culture anyone whose shame was too unbearable would then perform this ancient act of disemboweling oneself. I find this to be a very extreme, and not to mention wrong, way to restore honor.
The difference between spirituality and religion is religion is a belief system based on a specific deity. Spirituality is a general belief in something beyond the physical.
The poem starts out with the lawlessness in the world at that time period, but then it goes on to say that a "second coming is at hand." A second coming could mean that things are going to get better, yet the next lines of the poem make it sound like they won't. Yeats' sight is troubled, and he uses the words "nightmare" and "rough beast." Where I am in the book, there has just been a catastrophe of sorts. Maybe this means something worse is to come?
ReplyDeleteThe questionable beliefs and harsh discipline of Okonkwo could be considered vices; however, if you examine the strength and devotion he has in relation to those beliefs and the discipline, you could see they are also virtues.
Suicide, ritualistic or not, is wrong in my opinion. I don't go as far as some to say that it's selfish; however, it's not something I believe in. An example that comes to mind is the kamikazes. Those were the Japanese pilots that would sacrifice their lives and crash into enemy planes during World War II.
When I think of religion, I think of the rules that you follow. If you just focus on religion, you're only going through the motions. However, spirituality, as Jessica said, is more of a relationship. Religion is a small part of being spiritual, but still you can't have one without the other.
As I read the poem, "The Second Coming", I realized it had great ties to the book we are reading. Obviously the title of the book is mentioned in the first stanza but it goes beyond that. The poem is based on changes and when "anarchy" is in play it puts a wear on communities and things fall apart. Also in the book things fell apart when they couldn't stand up for their beliefs and customs.
ReplyDeleteI agree solely with Brandi on Okonkwo's virtues and how they could become his vices. For instance how his hard work has earned him high position in his clan. But Okonkwo behaves very rashly which in turns brings trouble upon his family. Another vice of his would be how he beats his wives and children just as a way of demanding respect from them. I think this is a very immoral habit.
In my opinion suicide of any form is wrong, but that is just how I was raised to believe growing up in church. In some Eskimo cultures, suicide has been seen as an act of respect, wisdom, or courage.
To me religion is the pathway that gets you close or closer to the god you believe in. Spirituality is the personal relationship you have. The difference between religion and spirituality is that most religions offer a specific set of beliefs and structures to help people to adjust to their distinctive spirituality. I would say that you can not have one without the other; just because they are so closely related.
the poem "The Second Coming" talks about some of the same things as the novel we're reading. When the poem states, "The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. I think William Butler Yeats is saying when things start to go wrong even the people with the most respect start doing wrong. Just like in the book, when things start falling apart for Okonkwo he looks for someone to blame then beats them. He does this because of his virtue of respect and his fear of being weak. I don't think suicide is right in any form. The Aztecs believe their gods sacrificed themselves to create the sun. To me religion is something you believe in, and spirituality is being loyal to what you believe in. Yes they go hand in hand but... I believe you can be spiritual without it being to a religion. You can be spiritual to a relationship with another person.
ReplyDeleteYeat's poem begins with apparent anarchy taking place. The speaker of the poem believes a revelation, or second coming, will happen soon. The changes described in the poem are very similar to the situation present in the novel. The lack of conviction present in the people of the poem and novel are also similar.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo shows a great deal of masculinity as one of his virtues. He is a strong man, and commands respect as a member of the tribe. Okonkwo beats his wives and children, hoping to gain respect from them, which is a vice.
For a society to perform ritualistic suicide is very twisted, in my opinion. It makes human life seem worthless and worthy of gambling. In Japan, rituals of suicide like Seppuku were practiced. Seppuku is ritual suicide by self-disembowelment on a sword; practiced by samurai in the traditional Japanese society.
Religion talks about a god. Spirituality helps to make us godly. The two need not be at odds. Religion at its best is spirituality in community. I don't think you can have one without the other because together religion and spirituality create faith.
Yeat's poem is interesting and I enjoyed it. To me, I think he's just trying to get out that the world has gone crazy. There's all this violence and no one is doing anything! He wants there to be a "Second Coming" that will fix society. As far as the carrier bird reference at the beginning and the spinx description at the end, I want to google it (and I probably will when I finish this). This ties in with the book in that something's gotta give. It can't keep on going like its going.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo's virtues and vices, I agree, are one in the same. He wants to make his kids respectable and raise them not to be lazy. The vice in the situation would be that he has to beat them to get them there. It says in the book that his kids are afraid of him and I think that's too far. I babysit a 2 year old and a 3 year old 6 days a week, so I can understand instilling some respect. But when it gets to the point that they're afraid of voicing opinions, you've taken their individuality and that's a vice. In this society, at least, I believe it's a vice.
I think societies that have a ritualistic form of suicide are justified. It's something people all over the world have different views on. In 2002, the U'Wa tribe in Africa threatened to commit mass suicide if people started drilling for oil on their land. Seppuku is a type of Japanese ritual suicide. Part of the samurai bushido honor code it was either used voluntarily to die with honor rather than fall into the hands of their enemies or as a form of punishment for a samurai who had committed serious offenses. The disembowelment consisted of stabbing a short blade into the abdomen and moving the blade from left to right in a slicing motion.
I believe that religion and spirituality are two different things. I think you can go to church your whole life and not be spiritual. You can go to church and have a religion and go through the motions all day long. But when you finally accept God, that's when spirituality starts. You have to allow God to affect your soul.
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ReplyDeleteThe poem explains what most Christians know is going to happen. It shows how the once great world will turn into complete chaos and eventually everything will fall apart. The poem basically gives you the plot line of the book. Okonkwo's world was fine but it soon turned to chaos and eventually ended.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite quotes is by Abraham Lincoln, "It has been my experience that men who have no vices have very few virtues." Virtues and vices go hand in hand. They come from one another. Okonkwo has many virtues including honesty, hard work, loyalty, and courage. His vices stem from his virtues such as he does not have much compassion, is very stubborn, and has no patience.
Suicide is frowned upon in most societies and their corresponding religions. However, Hinduism accepts a man's right to end their life through the practice of fasting to death, called Prayopavesa. But Prayopavesa is restricted to people who have no desire or ambition left, and no responsibilities remaining. In ancient Rome and Greece military leaders often killed themselves if they lost their battle so that the enemy couldn't kill them or take them prisoner.
Religion is a way that leads to God. The way is not God, but it would lead people closer to God. Spirituality includes religion but also includes the way an individual person feels and reacts to the world around them and how they reach out to other people. The difference between religion and spirituality is that most religions offer a set of beliefs and structures to bring people to their own spirituality. You can have one without the other, and if you do I feel you are not getting the full experience of life that was intended for you.
The poem "Things Fall Apart" is about the beginning of the end. As a Christian, I automatically knew that this poem was about the second coming. When Christ returns to this earth, things will begin to fall apart, as stated several times in the Bible. there is nothing that we can do to prevent the second coming, we can only prepare ourselves for what is bound to happen.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo demands respect from each of his wives and each of his children, no matter what the circumstances may be. When Okonkwo feels that one of them isn't showing enough respect for him, he will beat them to show them that they must be accountable for their actions. Okonkwo almost demands them to work hard and never slack. If they aren't working hard and if they begin to slack off, he will beat them for that as well. In a sense, his virtues and vises are one in them same.
I don't believe that suicide or any other form of self harm is right, based upon my religious beliefs. In 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, it says "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, are you are not your own. For you were bought with a price; Therefor glorify God in your body and your spirit, which are God's." Our bodies area temple of the Lord and that is exactly how they should be treated. Suicide or any other form of self harm and not glorifying God, which is what we are commanded to do.
I don't believe that there is a difference between religion and spirituality. You simply cannot have one without having the other. The two are one in the same, much like Okonkwo's vises and virtues are one in the same.
“The Second Coming” talks about things falling apart and turning chaotic. People start looking for scapegoats when everything goes wrong, which is what Okonkwo does in the novel. Okonkwo's hard-working attitude is one of his virtues. He is a strong man and wants his family to work hard, as well. When they aren't working to the extent that he believes they should, he loses his temper and beats them. Those are vices. I think ritual suicide is determined by the culture you were raised in. In America, we're raised to believe it's wrong. If you widen your scope and step out, you can see how ritualistic suicide can be big parts of other people's cultures. Important parts, even. One type of ritualistic suicide is the Shathol'Syn. It is committed by the four losing Amarr Heirs following the election of a new Emperor. The tradition began in order to minimize the risk of conflict between the new Emperor and his opponents. It has only been broken twice. Religion is a belief system based on your God. It has rules and traditions that you're supposed to honor. Spirituality is a belief in something beyond the physical world. It's your personal relationship. I think you can have one without the other, it just won't be a complete experience.
ReplyDelete"The Second Coming" and this book go hand in hand. It tells how anarchy can tear apart people and communities. Regardless, it depicts how people are always looking for that "second coming", or something to come along and make everything better.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo is a very strong man. Like any man, he wants his family to be hard workers. I consider that a virtue. On the other hand, he has absolutely no control when it comes to his anger and wanting everything perfect. Okonkwo is an extremely harsh man.
I see no form of suicide right for the simple fact that I was raised that way and I'm a firm believer that it's wrong. Most societies used to frown upon it, but sadly it's being widely accepted these days. God is the giver of life, thus, the taking of life must remain in His hands alone.
I believe you can have religion without spirituality. You can say you belong to a religion all day, but until you experience God for yourself, it's not a spiritual situation. Once you feel God touch your life, that's when it becomes spiritual.
In the backstory of "The Second Coming" says that the poem is about the second coming of Jesus. The poem pretty much says that the world will come to an end with nobody capable of saving it. The poem has the same story line as the book. You live and eventually things turn chaotic.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo's virtues and vices are mostly the same. He is a strong man. Him being strong is also the reason he had the chance to abuse his wife. Most father's want their family to be hard working while being hard working themselves. Okonkwo seems to be what I call a perfectionist. If things don't go his way and work out perfect like he plans he has a rough time controlling his anger which is never a good thing.
I personally don't find it right to commit suicide. I believe that the only person who should be allowed to take a life is God. People say that you have to have a lot of guts to commit suicide. I don't think that is true. Suicide doesn't take guts, it takes stupidity. You wouldn't have this life if God didn't think you could handle it. Whether or not you believe it yourself is a different story.
You can have religion without spirituality. I have been in a lot of churches of many different denominations. I see people who sit on a church pew acting like the are some holy of holy's and they are doing wrong and committing all kinds of sins behind closed doors. There is no spirituality whatsoever in that. Spirituality involves an actual relationship with whatever God it is that you serve.
Yeats poem "The Second Coming" states in the third line..."things fall apart; the centre cannot hold." I think that mirrors the book. Things start to fall apart in Okonkwo's eyes when he doesn't have control.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo's virtues and vices- He wants to be a perfectionists. He wants to be in control of all things. When he works he expects his family to work right along with him no matter what. When they can't he beats them. He fears weakness.
I personally believe that suicide is wrong. The only time that it would be expectable socially with no other alternative would be in warfare where a soldier is taken prisoner and need to take a pill to kill himself. Other times that suicide happens would be in the muslim religion when they go on a jehad or if you were part of a cult like Jim Jones of the Peoples Temple Cult that committed mass suicide.
I believe you can have religion without spirituality. Religion is about rules that you follow or the organized practice. There are many religions and each one has many different rules to follow. Spirituality is the journey or process of self-discovery and learning who you are and who you want to be. It is challenging yourself to reach beyond current limits by questioning your beliefs and others and broadening your horizons. It often embraces the concept of searching and moving forward in the direction of meaning or purpose for your life. It leads you towards a higher power, whether rooted in a religion, nature, or some kind of unknown essence.
The poem "The Second Coming", talks about how things are going to fall apart and everything turning chaotic, which is basically what happens in the novel. Okonkwo virtued things like respect, and even if he had to beat it out of somebody, they were going to respect him, which would be a vice. I personally would say that suicide is wrong. The Muslim religion believes that if you kill yourself for the good of others, then you will be rewarded for your actions. I believe that religion and spirituality are two different things. Someone can go to church their whole life and still not be considered spiritual, if they're just going through the motions. It's not until you accept God that you are considered spiritual.
ReplyDeleteThe poem "The Second Coming" talks about how things can fall apart just as easily as they can come together. Things are going to go wrong, but the outcome depends on how you handle the situation. When the poem states "The falcon cannot hear the falconer;" it is like there is no form of leadership. The people do what they think they should do for themselves and don't work together.
ReplyDeleteOne of Okonkwo's virtues is his strength. He is very strong, but this strength could also be a vise. Another of Okonkwo's virtues is his respect. He demands respect from everyone and does everything to teach his children the importance of respect. Okonkwo's demand for respect could be a vise as well. Okonkwo goes to the point of beating his wives and children in order to receive respect.
In my opinion, any form of suicide is wrong. Religion is the set of rules you follow. Spirituality is the relationship you have. I believe you can have one without the other.
The poem talks about how things can fall apart just as easily as they can come together. Things are going to go wrong but you have to learn how to deal with it. Okonkwo's virtues and vises are pretty much the same. They are his strength. He demands respect from everyone and does every thing he possibly can to teach his children how important respect is. It can also be his vise because he goes to the point of beating his wives and children in order to gain respect.
ReplyDeleteSpirituality is the relationship you have. Religion is the set of rules you follow. Anyone can go to church and go through the motions of the religion without actually having a good, faithful relationship.
In "The Second Coming," Yeats demonstrates the eventuality and inevitability of destruction. Regardless of sacred or moral values, the world naturally moves from a state of order to one of decay, which both the poem and novel depict.
ReplyDeleteOkonkwo's strength is his greatest virtue, but also his fatal flaw. He can endure an enormous amount of pain; however, he refuses to show emotion, other than anger. Bottling himself up leads to his eventual downfall.
I believe suicide in all forms is wrong, whether ritual or not. A life is a terrible thing to waste. The Japanese are well known for seppuku, an honorable form suicide, during the feudal era. The samurai code of bushido taught ritual suicide as a way to earn honor.
Religion and spirituality are entirely different. One may be both or one. Religion is characterized as a rigid standard of beliefs and rules. On the other hand, spirituality is the fluid and earthy understanding of complex beliefs. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.
The poem "The Second Coming" ties in very well with this novel in my opinion. It says "Things fall apart, the center cannot hold" in this case I believe when it says "the center cannot hold," it is referring to our attitudes or feelings toward a situation. If our center is our positive thinking, then if things fall apart and it cannot hold, I think it means that all hope has been lost. This sets a foreshadow of things to come in the novel because for Okonkwo, everything starts going wrong, especially after his son converts to Christianity.
ReplyDeleteFor the poem itself, I believe that he is describing how the world is, and could be compared almost to Christianity because We believe that there will be a second coming of Jesus and I feel like he could be saying that when all craziness has occurred on Earth, a second coming will change everything.
Okonkwo has many vices and a few virtues. He definitely has more vices in fact. He beats his wife (as many as he has that is) and he threatened to kill his son because his son converted to Christianity. His virtues, however, is that he is the Lord of the clan. He also wants to protect his people as well. I don't believe in suicide as it is stated as the unforgivable sin. I believe some could say it is just the easy way out. There is a such culture that believes that if you kill yourself doing so to kill people of other religions, it is okay in their culture. I do not agree with it however. I believe that you can not have spirituality without religion. Doesn't most if not all religions revolve around spirituality? We, Christians believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit so we all have something to do with spirituality somehow or another.